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Bill Nevins talked with Larry Kirwan in November, 2000.
Bill Nevins: Black 47 has always been associated with the East Coast, especially New York City. They've been called, "the house band of New York". They've also played in Ireland, which makes sense given your Irish roots. But this past October, Black 47 toured Argentina. What's up? Are you getting restless? Why Argentina? And, since you are touring widely, when will you play in the Southwest USA? Larry Kirwan: Black 47 is
eternally restless. We would love to play
everywhere. Unfortunately or fortunately, we are a
working class band--we live from the money we earn
from playing. As we don't receive record company
support, each gig must be costed before we play it to
make sure that everyone gets paid and that we don't
incur a loss which could put us under, financially.
This is a total pain in the arse, but it's necessary
for survival.
As it turns out, the
Argentine promoters who invited us were able to pay
for flights and hotel rooms and pay enough money to
satisfy everyone's needs, so we were able to go.
That's how we decide where we will play. It's a very
tricky situation, as any musician will attest to. But
it is the reality, so adapt or go back to playing in
your garage!
Playing in Argentina was
wonderful. A whole new audience and a whole new
situation to get used to.
Eventually, something will break so that we can play in the
Southwest, but for now . . . it's just keep on working
to pay the bills! Been like that for ten years now,
and we really don't mind. It is a good job!
More than any other American
band, Black 47 is strongly associated with the
struggle for human rights and political-social
justice. Given Argentina's grim recent history of
right wing repression, the ongoing "Mothers of the
Disappeared" protests against military kidnappings and
murders, and Argentina's role as the birthplace of
Cuban Revolution hero Dr. Ernesto Che Guevara y Lynch,
what ramifications are there in Black 47 going there
now?
Well, it was an
"interesting" situation. For one thing, it was
unusual. We did not know the political affiliations
of the promoters before going there--mostly because of
the language barrier. To our shame, none of us speaks
fluent Spanish. Of course, when we got there it was
quite obvious that the former members of the Junta
had not invited us!
I knew that
there had been a sizeable emigration from Ireland to
Argentina in the late 19th and early 20th
century--many of whom were from my own home county,
Wexford. In an anthropological way, I was deeply
interested to find out how these fourth and fifth
generation Irish people had made out. I was very
moved by the greeting that was given to us. Many
there already knew about Black 47, which was quite
stunning to me. They tend to keep abreast of what is
going on in Irish circles--not merely the big success
stories like U2 or Sinead O'Connor--the usual
suspects, as it were--but in people like us who have
made an impact or contribution to Irish
culture--especially as it related to the Irish
Diaspora.
Still and all, Argentina
is a country walking on egg shells because of the
continuing influence and strength of the military and
the disappearances. Because the people have dealt
with it--not entirely different from my experiences of
the Czech and Soviet peoples right before the Wall
came down.
It's a very
interesting culture--very sophisticated and yet one
that will, no doubt, experience great growth when the
military shackles are finally totally lifted. For me,
it was a great personal experience. My father was a
merchant seaman and Argentina was almost his second
home for many years. He badly wanted me to go there
and experience the warmth of the people and a country
that he loved as a young man. Also, one of my
favorite composers is Astor Piazzolla. I have been
deeply moved by his music and to be in the places that
influenced him was inspiring.
And, I
found myself dragged onstage to dance jigs with an
Argentine Irish dance troupe! Danced my arse off, but
it was grand! And the audiences loved us, even
though there were English-Spanish translators
scattered through the crowds at every gig, explaining
our lyrics.We seemed to get the word across, anyway.
Especially in our song, "Bobby Sands" when we sang of
the infamous role of Maggie Thatcher--the Argentines
still hate Thatcher for the Malvinas War and her
sinking of their navy ship Belgrano. They
all got up and cheered--pretty thrilling!
Your latest Black 47 studio CD,
Trouble in the Land, came out on Shanachie,
while the Black 47 Live in New York City CD
came out on Gadfly. Why different
labels?
However, I would expect
that the next Black 47 studio CD will be on
Shanachie. I've had a good experience with the folks
at Shanachie. You can get any of them on the phone at
the drop of a hat. The fucking interns wouldn't even
take my calls at Mercury! Nonetheless, I see Black 47
and Larry Kirwan as mavericks. While there is a
loyalty to those who do right by us, still the
particular need will provide the outlet.
What has been your experience
with the various record companies, including Mercury
and EMI, that you have worked with over the
years?
Well, it's been pretty
good for the most part. But that's taking into
account that so many things can go wrong. A Murphy's
Law of sorts. EMI definitely tried their misguided
best for us. They spent a lot of money, but there are
few Einsteins in this business. Mercury were a joke!
And I've no reason to believe that they've changed.
We would never have been with them but for the fact
that Danny Goldberg, their ex-President, is a fan of
the band and shares some of our political
sympathies.
Shanachie are a great small
company but are constrained by their size. And Gadfly
are very small but allow me to hold on to the
masters. When working with them, I have to assume a
good portion of the work of promotion. But that's
okay.
The music business is very screwed
up. No one really understands the great waste of both
talent and resources that occurs. Unless you are
totally committed to a crazy life, for Christ's sake,
don't get involved! Go straight to Wall Street and
live the music life through your CDs and
downloads!
Early in 2000,
Black 47's co-founder, uileann
piper/bodhran player/rapper Chris
"Seanchai" Byrne left amicably to concentrate on his
own projects, (recording with his band, The Unity
Squad, and hosting legendary sessions in his Manhattan
pub, Rocky Sullivan's). Can you talk about how the
band is evolving after Chris?
LK
I would say it's getting into a more musical phase.
Our newest member is uileann piper Joseph
Mulvanerty. Joseph comes from a jazz, as well as
traditional Irish background. He is also 23 and,
perhaps, reflects more of the times than the rest of
us old geezers. We all tend to be lost in our own
worlds. The earth could come crashing down around us
and we would still function as musicians and a musical
outfit. Joseph has probably brought in the rare air
of contemporary life. He is also very quick at
improvising, and adds greatly in that department.
It was a good change for everyone concerned.
We can try new things and Chris can proceed with his
own career. We're all very excited about the way
things are going. The band is looser now and the
changes should be reflected in the next album.
What are some of your favorite
memories of the band with Chris Byrne?
Oh, man, there are so many! I remember in
the first months, we were playing a benefit up in the
Bronx. We were very confrontational back then. A
crowd of hecklers had gathered in front of us.
Finally, Chris basically told them all to go fuck
themselves. One of them shouted back, "You shouldn't
have said that!". When we inquired why, he pointed to
one in their midst and said, "'Cause he's the
owner!". Another place we never played again!
There was also a great intensity to the band
with Chris in it. He was always balls to the wall on
stage. I seem to remember the girst Guinness
Fleadh [festival] on Randall's Island [NY] as
being particularly forceful. As usual in these
situations, promoters tend to relegate us to the small
stage for "cosmetic purposes" and we very much
resented it. People were just stunned by the raw
intensity. At many times, we were very much on the
edge, both physically and mentally, and we always
channeled that feeling into the music. Chris was a
great person to have along side you onstage. He
didn't particularly care for any musicians' type
carry-on or tradition and he hated the whole idea of
"rock'n'roll". Quite often, he came across as this
Brooklyn, New York City Policeman laying down the law
onstage and I am proud to have served with him. He
also had a very cutting sense of humor which could put
everything--both triumph and disaster--into
perspective.
Black 47 has
always sung about the emigrants, Irish and non-Irish,
in America, both the serious and the humorous sides of
that story, as well as about the
d history of
the Irish back in Ireland. But what about the
relationship of the Irish in America to the indigenous
Americans, the Indians? Are you bothered by all those
John Ford-John Wayne movies with Irish songs in them
that glorified Indian-killing? What about that famous
Custer 7th Cavalry marching tune, "The
Garry Owen"?
Well, from my
point of view, I've always said that each race has its
own assholes. And I, for one, would never rule the
Irish out of that particular equation. In fact, many
of Black 47's fights have been with the Irish. I've
always had self-confidence in myself and my Irishness,
so that I don't feel that I have to stand up for
Irishness, especially when it is bigoted. I don't for
instance, care, as do many, if the Irish are
stereotyped as being drunks. In many cases, we
deserve it. I know how much alcohol I consume and how
much my race does too. I don't feel that I have to
speak up in situations like that. We also get credit
for being great writers and speakers and we accept
that, though many of us never crack a book and can
barely string a few sentences together. So, I accept
the good with the bad.
I know that the
Irish were responsible for great cruelty to both
Native Americans in the West, (as were most other
immigrant races), and to African Americans. Our
people went on a rampage during the anti-Draft riots
in New York at the time of the American Civil War. I
wrote about it from the Irish immigrant point of view
in our song, "Five Points"--not to refute what
happened, but because I found the affair an
interesting subject--basically that an immigrant group
brought a great city to the verge of anarchy and could
have had a huge impact on the Civil War.
It also interests me that the Irish were not
abolitionists, for economic reasons, (which is what
most of history is about). But that doesn't excuse the
fact that our people were responsible for lynching
African-Americans during those awful times. There is
no excusing something like that--even if the cause is
understandable. That is, two groups on the bottom of
society fighting for jobs. It happened. It was
awful, it was dramatic and I wrote about it.
History is messy, just like life. And if you're
going to write about it in song--you usually have to
adopt a point of view. You can't just recite a whole
lot of facts--we songwriters leave that job to
historians. People speak a lot about melting pots,
but the reality is that most races do not mix that
well. When they meet, they generally tend to
collide. And I think that I, for one, have dealt
fairly with some of the failings of our race, such as
xenophobia, sexism and homophobia.
Yes, in "Five Points" you get
inside the mindset of the Irish anti-draft mobs, and in
your version of "Danny Boy" you describe very
sympathetically a gay Irish construction worker who
runs head-on into bigotry on the job in America. And
one of your songs is a heroic portrayal of Paul
Robeson, including samples of his own speeches. As a
political and social progressive, is it hard to see
that the Irish in America are often slammed as
reactionary bigots, as they have been by the
British Government, Bono and other
critics?
Well, remember that for all the racists and
bigots there were people like Paul O'Dwyer, various
Kennedys, Malachy McCourt and many others who have
been on the side of the angels. We have a strong
liberal side, too. Unfortunately, because we were put
down at first ourselves, we tended to retreat back
into the security of the tribe. But we had great
people who spoke out against various forms of racism
also. Now that the Irish in America have reached a
plateau of success, the worst forms of racism are
becoming mere memories. Long may that be the
case!
Black 47 has often sung about the
Northern Ireland conflict, in songs like "Fanatic
Heart" and "Time to Go", and you often played at
benefits and generally supported the efforts towards
lasting peace and justice. The peace process looked
to be well established earlier this year, but recently
there has been new violence. What do you see for the
future?
The war is over. There will be problems with
the winding down. But, essentially, the world is a
different place now then back in 1968-69 when things
first erupted in Ireland. From my point of view,
getting the power of the American Presidency involved
was essential. This was, by no means, an original
idea. It went right back to the 1860s and was
continued in Parnell's, Collins', and DeValera's
eras. The American Presidency was the one power that
would make the British sit up and take notice. Then
when the [pro-British] Unionists felt that US aid
would be coming in, they were eager to be part of the
settlement, too! There is an old saying that the
"Unionists are more interested in the half-crown than
the Crown". So, yes, trouble will continue in the
changeover but peace is here and even though it may
falter from time to time, the people and the times
demand it.
Black 47 has caught a lot of criticism
over the years for a) your politics and outspokeness
and b) your diverging from expectations of how an
"Irish band" is supposed to sound. Any
comments?
Well, yes and quite rightly so! We've always
been on the cutting edge of opinion. That's not a
place to be if you are afraid of criticism or
controversy. We set ourselves up to be the voice of
disaffected nationalism and Irish republicanism in the
US, championing the rights of the nationalist minority
in the North of Ireland. That was not a pretty place
to be back in 1989 and the early 1990s. Sinn Fein
[the Irish Republican political party which
endorses the IRA] and [Sinn Fein President]
Gerry Adams were social pariahs then. Now, every
musician, politician and hanger-on praises Mr. Adams
and wants to get their picture taken with the man!
And that's okay.
Sinn Fein has, by far, the best
political minds in their midst. Their political
acumen was sharpened by years of imprisonment and they
took advantage of their hardships. For those who have
been around it, Irish Republicanism is a flame and an
ideal that's very consuming and has great moral
strength and integrity. When it was mixed with left
wing humanistic ideology, it was very
irresistible.
I know its strength and appeal. I was raised by a
very hard-core Republican grandfather. But it was
anything but generally popular when Black 47 started
out. So, because we told it as we saw it and, in my
case, sought to give back Republican and socialist
heroes to the young people, we were castigated by
certain sections of opinion. We were controversial
and certain people tried to marginalize us. But that
was no big deal to us because as Yeats put it, "Was
there another Troy for us to burn?". We were
political and if you didn't like it, then you were
better off listening to something more accomodating to
your blander tastes.
And now we are still controversial.
Because, the awful question has to be asked. Was it
worth it all? What has been achieved from thirty
years of mayhem that couldn't have been gained by the
young marchers of the People's Democracy [Northern
Ireland nonviolent civil rights campaign of the late
1960s]?
It's a very difficult question to face up to. But
it's going to have to be done. Would we have reached
the same position we are now in, or even gone a little
further, if we hadn't, time after time, given up the
high moral ground by slaughtering people?
After all, there is still no Republic and whole
communities have been polarized and may stay that way
for generations to come. These are difficult
questions and must be dealt with.
I have a lot of respect for Sinn Fein,
though I am definitely not a member. Sinn Fein
can go on to achieve great things. It is now the
only all-32-county [all-Ireland, north and south]
political party. But if these questions are not dealt
with, they will become just another political party.
And that would be a sad thing for Irish
Republicanism.
By the same token, it must never be forgotten that
Irish Nationalism and Irish Republicanism were facing
some very intransigent people like Mrs. Thatcher and
various right wingers and "little Englanders" in both
the Conservative and Labour Parties of Britain. I,
for one, will never forgive Thatcher for the
unnecessary deaths of [IRA prisoner and elected Member
of Parliament] Bobby Sands and his nine comrades, who
died on hunger strike in 1981.
As regards "expectations of what an Irish band
should sound like", I never even considered that to be
an issue! We were original musicians trying to make
original music. The furthest thing from our heads
was, "What do people expect or think of us?". From
the very first night we started playing we were
involved in controversy but were also balancing the
need to challenge ourselves and enjoy the music with
the cyclone of gigs, travelling, partying and
generally keeping up with life.
It's still that way. In my own case, there are
expectations but they come totally from myself. Like
how do I stretch the band and myself musically? And
lyrically, I was trying, from the start, to emulate
the greats--Dylan, Yeats, Joyce, Miller, Durrell. I
knew there was no hope but, at least, if you aimed at
the stars you might just crash into the moon, (and not
the one that rhymes with June)!
With Joseph Mulvanerty now your piper,
do you also plan to add a reggae-rapper similar to
Chris Byrne's singing style? Or to feature guest
artists on future recordings?
No, no such plans. Why repeat yourself? The
band will produce, from within itself, what we need.
I approach everything from a songwriting point of
view. What suits the song, suits me. That's how I
bring in people to record with us. But I don't hang
out and don't have many contacts in the "real" music
business. Santana had a lot of "guest artists" on his
latest album. I loved his solos, as ever, but most of
the songs left me cold. I opened the CD, played it
once, and haven't opened it since, sad to say.
Your song, "American Wake" sketches a
homesick Irish exile. You have lived in America now
for about twenty years. Many Irish who came to
America in recent decades have gone back to Ireland
now that the economy there is much better. Have you
thought of doing that yourself? What keeps you in
America?
I'm still head over heels in love with New York
City! I love the very stones in the streets and the
sense of history there continues to overwhelm me. I
go back to Ireland every year. This year, I went back
to bury my mother. My father is quite ill. I expect
when he's gone that a major link will be severed. I
try not to feel that way but parts of Ireland are
slipping away from me. I'm going to Wexford to do my
first solo show soon. It's rather like putting the
cat amongst the pigeons. Jumping in off the deep
end. Perhaps it's an act of desperation because I
don't feel the same pull to Wexford anymore. I don't
envisage going back to live. But then, stranger
things have happened.
Can you tell a bit about your early
years here, and your work in both music and theater?
Didn't you have a folk duo album out in the
1970s?
I came over here with Pierce Turner who was
also from Wexford. We had a duo called Turner and
Kirwan of Wexford, (a most difficult name to say). We
played together until 1985 and around 1979 morphed
into The Major Thinkers, who had some small success
with a song called "Avenue B is the Place To Be" on
Epic Portrait Records. Turner and Kirwan released a
critically acclaimed and radio-played album around
1978 called Absolutely and Completely.
It's now a very costly collectors item!
We were very quirky and original. We also smoked a
lot of dope and were caught up in a whole hedonistic
scene that centered around a bar in the Village called
The Bells of Hell. We came very close to breaking
through on a couple of occasions but it didn't quite
happen. We remain great friends.
After Pierce and I split, I went full time into the
theater. I wrote, directed, produced and did whatever
to four or five plays until 1989. Those plays were
collected in a book called Mad Angels. I
still work in the theater and I have written another
five plays and musicals since then. I still love the
theater but, to put it bluntly, I haven't the time,
and probably the inclination, to kiss the right arses
and that is a necessity in the theater.
On occasion, also, I have had to turn down
opportunities because of my responsibilities with Black
47. Still, I persevere and make sure that everything
I do gets, at least some kind of production. I'm
currently collaborating with Tom Keneally, (author of
Schindler's List), on a musical about women
convicts being deported from Ireland to Australia.
And Liverpool Fantasy, my best known play,
[about what might have happened if John Lennon had
quit the Beatles before they made the big time], will
be produced in Liverpool in April. I also have hopes
of The Poetry of Stone, my last play, getting
a New York City production this Spring.
Any thoughts on The Bells of Hell,
that legendary Manhattan pub? What are the best
pubs in New York now? Elsewhere in America? In
Ireland? In Argentina?
Well, The Bells was a great influence on me. I
spent some of the happiest nights of my life there.
It was full of characters--your brother in criticism,
Lester Bangs, being one of them, and a great friend.
It was a time for hanging out, getting smashed, laid
and doing lots of drugs. Also, getting the experience
and experiences from which I have been able to dredge
for songs.
In tandem with The Bells was The Kiwi, an
after hours joint on 9th Street between First Avenue
and Avenue A. I usually repaired there when the Bells
closed and stayed until late dawn. It was mostly a
Black and Puerto Rican place with assorted
transvestites, hookers, drug dealers, and people of
the night.
I now prefer quieter places with very good beer.
Of course, I spend a lot of time in bars, given the
nature of Black 47's appeal. But there is no one
place that I frequent.
In your songs, and onstage, you often
step inside the persona of a character, historical or
fictional. Can you talk about some of these, and how
you chose them?
Well, I came to that way of writing
unintentionally. It happened because of the immersion
with character that comes with playwriting. I hadn't
even realised what I was doing until the band's songs
began to be reviewed. I do have to have a feeling for
the characters and be able to identify with their
causes. With [1916 Irish socialist hero] James
Connolly, I hated the old standard song, "The Ballad
of James Connolly". As a socialist myself, I resented
that he had been railroaded by tears-in-the-beer
nationalism. I thought that Connolly, the world
revolutionary, would have resented that, too. But
with that song, as with the others, I always have to
find a way to enter his spirit, as it were.
With Connolly, it was quite simple. What must he
have felt--knowing that he was going to be
executed--about leaving his family fatherless and
penniless behind him? Once I found that chink in the
armor, the rest was just a matter of diligent and
knowledgeable songwriting.
So, I suppose it's a technique. But I ponder long
and hard before taking on a character. I'm working on
a couple right now and, to tell you the truth, I'm
finding it particularly hard and painful. Which could
mean that I'll fail or maybe that I just have to keep
persevering.
Do you write some songs directly from
your own persona?
Very much. But I also usually throw in a wild
card. Still, I'm not really a confessional writer. I
use the raw data of experience and then add something
totally outside the mix to spice things up.
How much are the other band members
involved in creating your songs?
Not at all in the lyrics. Our usual procedure
is that I write the words and music and a couple of
the main instrumental lines. Then Fred [Parcells],
the trombone player, comes in and transcribes some of
these lines and rearranges them. Then I go in with
Hammy, the drummer, and Geoff, the sax player and
Joseph our piper and suggest parts to them. Everyone
works to get the song together so we can play it, in
some form, at the next gig. Then, over some months,
the song mutates into what it eventually becomes. But
it doesn't stop there. We post new song lyrics on our
website and ask for our fans' criticism and
suggestions. We often drop songs for long periods
and when we revive them, we will have new ways of
reinterpreting them--often not consciously done.
Your first solo album, Kilroy Was
Here, will be released on Gadfly Records in
February. How does it differ from Black 47
projects?
A couple of years back, I was working on a play
about my family and my crazy political upbringing,
entitled The Poetry of Stone. My grandfather
was a stonecutter, a self-educated man and an ardent
Irish Republican. He raised me. Anyway, the play
just poured out, (not the usual case), and was
probably the best thing I had written. It was very
intense and stirred up a lot of memories of family and
growing up in Wexford in a different era. The song,
"Tramps Heartbreak", from Trouble in the
Land, [Black 47's latest album, on Shanachie],
came from the same process.
Around the same time, I heard Time Out of Mind
by Bob Dylan and, like many's the worker in song,
that album forced me to take stock of my own work.
Basically, I felt Dylan had left us all behind again.
There was a depth to that album that floored me. And,
to tell you the truth, I felt that I had been, at
times, merely skimming the surface in my own
songwriting.
And so, I took a step back, got out the pick and
shovel and went mining. A number of songs from
Kilroy Was Here came from that excavation.
Three of them are up with the best I've
done--"Molloy", "Kilroy Was Here" and, most
especially, "Life's Like That, Isn't It?".
Musically, I wanted the mood to be quieter than
Black 47 but as intense. So, I featured trumpet and
violin as the lead instruments. Those instruments
have a slightly Spanish feel but that was, oddly
enough, the feel of some of the music I heard growing
up in Wexford. Remember that my hometown was then at
the end of its era as a seaport but the international
influence of the port was still very prevalent.
Many of the songs were written on Sunday evenings,
which used to be a very heavy and reflective time in
Irish life. I usually go to a bar with my children,
have a few pints and then on the walks home, the songs
seemed to seep out. Later that night, in the
quietness, they would take shape.
Stewart Lerman, who produced Trouble In the
Land, set me up with a number of musicians. From
the start, we wanted to keep it loose, almost a jazzy
feel. So, we had two three-hour rehearsals and then
went in and cut the whole thing. All the vocals and
acoustic guitar were done live, usually in first
takes. I had intended to re-record them but found
that, while technically the redone vocals might be
better, yet they couldn't match the intensity of the
music. I'm very proud of the album and think it takes
songwriting/storytellling in a new direction.
The Black 47 website (www.black47.com) has
spawned a Discussion Forum which you maintain and
which has turned into the prime information source on
Irish history for many fans. Are you happy with
this? Is it becoming a separate job to manage the
site?
Well, Black 47 has a responsibility. We've
opened a lot of eyes to the politics and culture of
Ireland, so it's only fitting that it would spill over
onto our discussion site. It doesn't really take too
much time. There are many educated people who drop
into the site and give their opinions, so I don't have
to keep it percolating. It seems to do that itself.
What does take time, is that I answer every email
personally. But I'm a fast typist and can usually
think on my feet. It also has given me a much better
understanding of what Black 47 means to people--for
better or worse!
You have expressed admiration for
Bernadette Devlin McAliskey, the former Member of
Parliament who long has been identified with the Irish
Republican left, and is a heroine to many Irish-
Americans, but who has been "marginalized" in Ireland
by the changes in Sinn Fein and the peace
process. What is the future for the Left in
Ireland?
Bernadette has been a major influence on my
life. You have no idea what she meant to us as young
teenagers when she "hit the scene". She was
magnificent! Read her maiden speech in the House of
Commons for sheer intelligence, integrity and
intensity. At different times, I've lost touch with
her but then I listen to her speak and it seems she
still has that annoying (to some) instinctive ability
to get right to the heart of the matter. Because of
this facility, she has been marginalized. The truth
is often unpalatable and she has a strident way of
presenting it.
To many of us used to dealing with the
realpolitik, it was clear that Sinn Fein
and the IRA were always going to have to come to
a compromise with the Northern power structure. It
came quicker than most of us would have expected. I
can make allowances for something like that, but a
Joan of Arc like Bernadette will not. No one wants an
Old Testament Prophet in their ranks, especially a wee
woman from County Tyrone. But, that's their problem.
For me, she is a lighthouse. I don't always agree
with her but she intuitively makes me question all my
beliefs, every time I listen to her.
I don't know what the future of the Left is in
Ireland. Hopefully, Sinn Fein and the
progressive elements of the Irish Labour Party can
form some kind of alliance. I do see Sinn
Fein, because of their great ability and their
grassroots work, gaining up to ten seats in the Irish
Parliament in the not too distant future, and becoming
a power broker in their own right. Then the fat will
truly be in the fire. Sinn Fein in an Irish
government? It's coming!
Can you talk a bit about the strange
adventures Black 47 has had--being shot at onstage,
crashing in the tour van, etc.? Do you bring this
stuff on yourselves? Other bands don't have those
kinds of adventures, do they? And then you write
songs about them!
Well, the band always was passionate and I
suspect that element tends to foster adventures. Our
audiences, for the most part, have always been great
but there are a few volatile people amongst them,
too. The shooting was an aberration. One off-duty
New York policeman took out his gun, thinking it was
unloaded, in the middle of the dance floor one St.
Patrick's eve, and pulled the trigger on himself.
Unfortunately, the bullet went through him, killing
him, and bounced around the balcony, passing through
our road manager's wife's hand and then lodging in my
wife's body. An amazing coincidence, seeing they were
sitting thirty feet from each other!
At the time, one of the British tabloids had named
us as "the musical wing of the IRA", making us fair
game for fanatics, so we assumed the gun shot was
aimed at us. But it was just a tragic accident.
We travel a lot, long journeys by van, so the crash
was probably just one of those things. I think our
shows just bring a lot of passion to the surface. And
passion has a way of doing its own thing.
At almost every show of yours I have
seen, and I have seen a lot of them, you pledge to
give up drinking. Who do you think you're
kidding?
I love drinking! It loosens up a part of me.
I try to keep it under control nowadays. Being
creative is much more important. And yet, that first
pint just feels wonderful. My body now tells me to
slow down and I'm able, for the most part, to obey its
orders.
Seriously, though, Black 47, like Shane
MacGowan, has been slammed for "perpetuating the
drunken Irish image". Any
response?
Irish people like to drink. There is usually
an underlying reason for a stereotype. But, in
reality, what band brings more subjects, (both
political and social), into their songs? What other
band's songs are used in so many political and history
courses throughout the USA? If we like to let it all
hang out on stage, with the help of a few drinks,
what's the big deal? It's a lot better that kids go
to a Black 47 show, drink in supervised conditions,
and pick up something about history and politics than
sit in their basements and chugalug without any kind
of restraint or supervision. It takes a lot of
concentration and fitness to get through a two-hour
Black 47 set. I know how to pace myself. The kids
watching will unconsciously get that, too. I can't
afford to get drunk--I have to be up at 630 the next
morning to get my kids off to school! But I can get
loose and I adore doing so!
You always throw yourself totally into
your shows, physically and emotionally. They are
great fun, but it looks exhausting to do that night
after night, week after week, year after year.! How
the hell do you keep going?
Oh, those shows lift you up. I feel
rejuvenated after them. I can't sleep. My fingers
are tingling. They are a thrill and a privilege to
do. You have no idea how wonderful it is to be in a
great rock band that's roaring along at full throttle
onstage! It's like having the best fuck of your life
every night onstage!
Jim Carroll, another New York City
rocker, took a long hiatus from music to write poetry
and do readings--he only recently resumed his rock
career. You also have many plays in print and often
in production. Do you see your future as continuing
with the band, or do you see stopping and focusing on
writing and plays?
I like doing both in tandem. I could probably
get on better in the theater world, if I concentrated
on it. But I have to make a living too, and music is a
great way to do it. I do wish I could give a bit more
time to writing. It's a joy to me. But, I think
everyone is time-constrained these days. I just do
the best I can and let the chips fall where they
will.
Where is the best pint?
I go to a little bar called Riverrun in
Tribeca. there is a great bar called McGeary's in
Albany that has a wonderful array of beers, also.
But I suppose the best pint is in the place where your
friends are.
Thanks, Larry. Cheers.
Audio: "The History of Ireland Part 1"
This interview originally appeared in edited form in Thirsty Ear.
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Different strokes for
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